Which TD12 for 3 Way PA?

Posted In: Subwoofers 101


  • Participant
    ww-audio on #1266

    Hello all
    I intend to change my heayy 15″ PAS Coax top (separate 15″ Sub) to a 12″ / TPL 150H Top for small Club gigs. JBL 2206 is in real live limited to 800 Hz, but I Need 1.6 k. Any suggestions or experience about TD12M in PA? Do they last?
    I’m using Powesoft DCell IS 504 (bridged) modules so surely no amp clipping.
    Thanks a lot
    Werner
    Switzerland


    Participant
    stryke on #11078

    Hi Werner,

    I have a lot of the TD12M’s and TD15M’s in the live sound world. With the DCell IS504 it looks like they are 350×2 at 4ohm. I would go with the the 4ohm TD12M in this case to get the full output. As long as you have the appropriate highpass you should have not issues with that amount of power. The box is a little large for the TD12M but it should work well. Response of the TD12M extends well to 5KHz as you can see in the link below. On axis you will be just fine.

    https://sites.google.com/site/drivervault/driver-measurements/tang-band-75-1558se/ae-speakers-td12m/frequency-response

    We actually modified a bunch of the PAS 15″coax tops. I have 4 of the 15″ original drivers here. I plan to modify one by putting a copper sleeve on the pole to experiment with my own coax using a Radian compression driver. We added a bunch of bracing because the cabinets were very resonant. Unfortunately I cant’ find any pictures right now. We then just dropped in a single TD15M to the box. On top of that box he added another box with the BMS coax compression driver on a Faital LTH142 horn to make a modular 2way. The 18 sound XT1464 also works great for this. He could stack 1-2 boxes with the 15″ woofers, then place the horn box on top. For larger situations he would stack 2x 15 boxes, the horn, then 2 more 15″ boxes on top to make a large MMTMM. Being 60 degrees wide, he has ability to do from 1-3 stacks next to each other depending on how wide he needs for coverage. Everything is smaller, lighter boxes that can be moved and stacked easily by himself.

    I do like the TPL150H. However you may have much better results going to a horn and good compression driver. The Radian 745PB is a great 1.4″ option and can be had with the Beryllium upgrade. You could then cross about 800hz between TD15M and Radian on the horn. You will have much more headroom and efficiency. At low volumes I think the TPL150H could definitely sound better. As the level increases the compression driver should have some advantage. Crossing over lower, about 800hz will also give you a more even polar response as the woofer will narrow before your crossover to the TPL150H.

    Best regards,
    John


    Participant
    ww-audio on #11079

    Hello John
    Thanks for yor reply. I will build a new box und use the 4-Channel DCell bridged, so I will get 700 Watts out of it for the td12 and the tpl 150H each at 8 ohms :mrgreen:
    The PAS Coax are boomy, strange phase behaviour in the low mids … you can flatten the response with a decent controller as in the DCell but then you run into problems at about 800 Hz.
    If you manage to improve that, please let me know, we (me and my collegue) own 8 pieces of them.
    I ordered 2 TD12 yesterday, I will post the results.
    Best regards
    Werner


    Participant
    stryke on #11080

    Hi Werner,

    If I get time the coax will be totally different. We have to demagnetize and pull the motor apart. Putting a sleeve of copper on the pole will get rid of the inductance and allow it to play higher and change a lot of the phase stuff. It is mostly something to play around with myself. Long down the road I hope to do a coax woofer so this will just be a fun experiment.


    Participant
    ww-audio on #11081

    Hi stryke
    I’m powering the PAS with the IS-Modules described above. It is amazing what you get out of it, combined with a BMS 15N840 woofer with it’s own IS.
    So please, work on it and let me hear 🙂
    cheers
    Werner


    Participant
    ww-audio on #11082

    [attachment=0:dcoqy69r]IMG_0355.JPG[/attachment:dcoqy69r]Hello John and srtyke
    Frequency Response of your Driver as predicted.
    This not a PA Top but a High-End Top at jet level. Amazing, almost no power compression, it remains allmost balanced with the tpl at full power …
    Can’t wait to finish the pair
    Congratulations for your product
    cheers
    Werner


    Participant
    stryke on #11083

    Looks very good Werner. That should be a great combination that is very detailed and provides quite effortless sound.


    Participant
    ww-audio on #11084

    Hi all
    So here is the measuring at full power with some drops as you need it for (small) PA
    Just watch the thd for the tdm, amazing, same level as the tdm ….crossover at 1600 Hz, so ther should be no worry to grill the tpl 😛
    Low (LR 48) cut for the tdm at 50Hz
    sounds like a headphone …


    Participant
    stryke on #11085

    looks very nice. what kind of SPL levels are you seeing there?


    Participant
    ww-audio on #11086

    Hello stryke
    Hm, thats difficult to say, I will have to set up a decent callibration of my whole Setup (as you ca see on the Picture I’m using a focusrite (line Level calibrated) with variable mic gain, for measuring the the new presonus mic .
    From my experience it is something like near 120 db … impossible to stand without hearing protection … and it still sounded with them on :mrgreen:
    As we have carneval tommorow it’s a good opportunity th run it outside the house for long time testing :mrgreen:
    cheers
    Werner

    Sorry, have to be more specific. The about 120 dB are full power, did not measure Distorsion at that level.


    Participant
    ww-audio on #11087

    [attachment=0:2bt0l73y]Foto.jpg[/attachment:2bt0l73y]Finished and tested in our rehearsel room, just perfekt.


    Participant
    ww-audio on #11088

    [attachment=0:3vvplg1h]Final.JPG[/attachment:3vvplg1h]Final Response. Quite nice for PA :mrgreen:

    this was at about 95 db … if you can trust a iPod app ….


    Participant
    ww-audio on #11089

    [attachment=0:ky991fyo]Toleranz-1.JPG[/attachment:ky991fyo][attachment=1:ky991fyo]Midas-TPL-AE-Powersoft.JPG[/attachment:ky991fyo]Hi all, Hi Stryke
    Congratulaions on your products again … her a pic of 2 TDM12M, just a testing measuremet ..


    Participant
    ww-audio on #11090

    [attachment=0:2wn6aue4]FOH-1.jpg[/attachment:2wn6aue4]They (together with the 15″ Subs) survived their first concert (180 persons) yesterday, great transparent sound, loud an clear and never agressiv.
    All in all my suggestion for small Club gigs.
    cheers
    Werner


    Participant
    ww-audio on #51534

    Hello there
    More than 100 concerts meanwhile, they all survived.
    Up to 200 people, even with rock.
    I love them
    cheers
    Werner

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