** Official TD Woofer Group Buy Information **


  • Participant
    Mark Seaton on #9542

    @skywave-rider wrote:

    Thanks, Mark. My concern is C to C distance, not the upper FR of the 15″ and dispersion which I know is particularly well behaved and could match well with the QSC. If I could custom build my own, I would route into the QSC wg as the late Zilch had done to get closer still. The CNC pics you post look really great. I can only wait and see.

    The real question is if an ~11.5″ C-C distance is significantly better than a ~13.125 C-C distance. The difference is barely more than an 1/8th octave of change, while the piston area yields 4dB greater headroom, along with greater sensitivity. When it comes to implementing a passive version, the added sensitivity is significant for many, and makes for much greater performance from amplifiers that don’t have noisy fans, and even from high value receivers.

    The vertical integration of a 2 way horn + woofer always makes for some practical compromises. Having modeled the potential polar response with the same tools I have previously correlated with my current and past designs, I see more benefit than compromise with the 15″ woofer.

    If there is sufficient interest, I see no problem with at minimum offering a cabinet for a TD12 + horn where the cabinet can likely shrink 1-2″ in the width and 4″ in the height. That said, I have no intent of offering a dozen different cabinets of the similar concept, as I’d much prefer to get a few well polished.


    Participant
    Mark Seaton on #9543

    @noah katz wrote:

    Hi Mark,

    “…the off axis difference of the 12″ vs. 15″ is not huge in the 1-2kHz range where we care about in this case (maybe 3dB difference at 40 deg).”

    Seems to me that’s exactly why the 12″ is the sweet spot – close to the same performance with half the box volume.

    Do you really think the 12” is in any way inadequate for home use when crossed to subs?

    “John and Nick before him have repeatedly noted that the 15” has the nicest behavior at the upper octaves.”

    Does that hold for the TD12M?

    In boxes of my own and John’s I’ve heard the TD10, 12 and 15 variants each sound great. In the end it is always the crossover and system design which will trump the differences in similarly capable drivers. Being a 2 way design, I am drawn to the TD15M, where less excursion is required for the same SPL and which I know from personal listening has a smooth and easy to work with top end. The 15″ driver allows a great deal of headroom from even a sealed cabinet. I know first hand from my Catalyst 12C and 8C speakers how much peak excursion/displacement can be put to use with a good recording, even with a 60-80Hz high pass to a subwoofer.

    The QSC horn is what prompted me to choose this as one of the cabinets to have our builder offer. John’s group buy was in fact coincidental in timing. Most other off the shelf horns are either of smaller dimensions or have too great an aspect ratio difference (ie 90×40). Not seeing other HT speakers available that are as bold as a large horn + 15″ woofer in a box that’s 20″ wide, 30″ tall, and 10″ deep with a unique form, I felt it might find an audience. The availability of the QSC horn and short lead times of my willing cabinet builders made it possible to pursue. It didn’t hurt any to hear that Bill Waslo(bwaslo) was quite happy with his related creation.


    Member
    skywave-rider on #9544

    @mark Seaton wrote:

    The vertical integration of a 2 way horn + woofer always makes for some practical compromises. Having modeled the potential polar response with the same tools I have previously correlated with my current and past designs, I see more benefit than compromise with the 15″ woofer. …

    Thank you, Mark. For me, optimizing the forward lobe is very important, and a small change in the C to C can yield benefits out front.

    IIRC bwaslo’s homebrew horn held pattern lower than the QSC. But I don’t recall its dimensions.


    Member
    penngray on #9545

    I remember discussions about the upgrade, its more of a live event type thing. The upgrade from what I remember only allows the driver to play louder at a higher SQ.

    In my comparisons of the TD12S apollo upgrade vs TD12S I found zero differences in my home application.


    Member
    penngray on #9546

    John, could you estimate the time frame for finished product shipping? Are we talking 1 month, 3 months, 6 months. I think its important to ensure everyone knows the time frames involved here.


    Participant
    stryke on #9547

    penngray, I updated the first post in the thread. If parts arrive the end of November we will machine the required parts right away and get them off to plating within a week. They should be back between 3-14 days later and the first drivers can begin shipping within a few days of that point.

    John


    Member
    penngray on #9548

    thx for the update!


    Member
    noah katz on #9549
    “Mark wrote:
    The QSC horn is what prompted me to choose this as one of the cabinets to have our builder offer.

    Ah, I keep forgetting this is for the QSC; I’m thinking in terms of the SEOS-12, which would allow a less obtrusive front baffle.


    Member
    noah katz on #9550

    @penngray wrote:

    In my comparisons of the TD12S apollo upgrade vs TD12S I found zero differences in my home application.

    Good to know, thanks.


    Participant
    Mark Seaton on #9551

    @noah katz wrote:

    “Mark wrote:
    The QSC horn is what prompted me to choose this as one of the cabinets to have our builder offer.

    Ah, I keep forgetting this is for the QSC; I’m thinking in terms of the SEOS-12, which would allow a less obtrusive front baffle.[/quote]

    I haven’t seen clear dimensions posted on the different SEOS variations. Once they are available and certain of form, I’ll be sure a cabinet or two are available, and possibly a kit.


    Member
    simon5 on #9530

    @granteedev wrote:

    Is it possible to get the TD12M cloth surround on a TD12X? I don’t really need the extra high excursion of the X because I will be using subs crossed around 80 to 100hz, but I do want the extra un-eqed extension in a sealed box to hit that ~90hz F3 point and i’m willing to trade off efficiency. Or does it not work like that?

    In reality, you ask for a TD12M with a TD12X coil… 8)

    I think that would be easy to do, but you will have to confirm with John.

    Since suspension will not be as stiff, expect T/S parameters to shift.


    Participant
    stryke on #9552

    Just a quick update here. Currently with the emails that have come in there are a total of 30 drivers on the list. With quite a bit of time left, it looks like the order should reach that 50pc quantity and next price break.

    I have also had a lot of interest in the LO and Dipole series. People have emailed and asked about them being included in this group buy. The issue is that the Dipole and LO series use different steel than the rest of the TD woofers so they can’t be included in the same quantity pricing. However because of the high demand, I could do a separate group buy for the Dipole and LO series drivers. The same minimum of 25pcs would be required and the same discount would apply if the 50pc quantity was reached. With several people already asking about 4, 6, and 8pc quantities, this seems that it could be quite reasonable to reach the 50pcs quantity. I’ll put up a separate Dipole Group Buy thread later on today. The time to allow orders to get in can go out a little longer and maybe close end of October.

    John


    Participant
    stryke on #9553

    @granteedev wrote:

    Is it possible to get the TD12M cloth surround on a TD12X? I don’t really need the extra high excursion of the X because I will be using subs crossed around 80 to 100hz, but I do want the extra un-eqed extension in a sealed box to hit that ~90hz F3 point and i’m willing to trade off efficiency. Or does it not work like that?

    The cloth surround is limited to about 12mm travel. The coil on the TD12X gives 14mm Xmax so you could easily risk damaging the suspension. It really requires the foam surround with the extra physical travel. I wouldn’t feel comfortable building a driver I knew could be easily damaged. How high do you plan to go with them? You can still easily get to 2KHz with a TD12X if necessary.

    John


    Member
    sveinungm on #9554

    @stryke wrote:

    Just a quick update here. Currently with the emails that have come in there are a total of 30 drivers on the list. With quite a bit of time left, it looks like the order should reach that 50pc quantity and next price break.

    I have also had a lot of interest in the LO and Dipole series. People have emailed and asked about them being included in this group buy. The issue is that the Dipole and LO series use different steel than the rest of the TD woofers so they can’t be included in the same quantity pricing. However because of the high demand, I could do a separate group buy for the Dipole and LO series drivers. The same minimum of 25pcs would be required and the same discount would apply if the 50pc quantity was reached. With several people already asking about 4, 6, and 8pc quantities, this seems that it could be quite reasonable to reach the 50pcs quantity. I’ll put up a separate Dipole Group Buy thread later on today. The time to allow orders to get in can go out a little longer and maybe close end of October.

    John

    Fantastic 8)


    Participant
    Mark Seaton on #9555

    I’ve read in various places that the 15/12″ question has come up a few times related to any kit or cabinet I might offer. I wanted to confirm that I will make available a cabinet for the TD-15″ & TD-12″ drivers with the QSC horn available through Parts Express. If a suitable SEOS horn is available, we’ll make at least one combo with a 15/12″ also available. I will also confirm that I will work up a similar design with one of the potential SEOS or eighteen sound XT1086 waveguides with a TD10.

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