Any update dual TD10M/NeoPro5i monitors?


  • Member
    simon5 on #3248

    A good rule of thumb for comb filtering is it starts when the distance between the centers of two woofers are separated by half a wavelength. If you stay under that threshold, you will avoid all comb filtering. Some people relax the rule to allow one wavelength between two woofers centers, especially in line arrays. You will have comb filtering, but not too severe. More than a wavelength is really problematic, you get nasty cancellations.


    Member
    titch on #3249

    I dont remember seeing a cost for these kits anywhere.

    What are they going to run about?

    thx


    Member
    Nasty N8 on #3250

    I do not think John has anything just yet as these are just starting to be tested but you figure 2 TD 10m’s are $500 and the ribbon is $300 so about $800-850 with crossovers then discount for a package??? Cough Cough labor for developing these comes to about $2000 a speaker 😈 Just kidding


    Member
    joshk on #3251

    @stryke wrote:

    In all reality the TD15M has better high frequency extension than theTD10M. Not that the TD10M is bad at all, but the 15″ due to the cone profile is just very smooth upwards of 4KHz. The following is a measurement from a pair of TD15M’s with a 40×60 horn between them.

    John

    Where do the TD12M’s fall into this comparison?


    Member
    exojam on #3252

    Here is what John was discussing on AVS at the end of January. Things may of coarse change but hopefully it stays around this price range.

    ____________________________
    For one of these monitors you’ll need a pair of TD10M’s, the Fountek ribbon, crossover components, some MDF, screws, glue, etc. Here is a general list of cost for a single speaker at retail prices:

    2 TD10M’s $239 each retail
    NeoPro5i $305 retail
    Xover components $25-30
    sheet of MDF $20
    screws, glue, etc $20

    Total of $853 at full retail

    I will be offering the TD10M’s with the current Lambda special of $100 off on a pair, and can also knock some off the NeoPro5i as I will have the quantity pricing on them. Expect things to come in at around $700-725 total per speaker. In a 5+ channel set, the driver cost can drop down even more. Again, this isn’t a budget speaker by any means. It does use high quality drivers that are not cheap. However, this system will be able to rival or outperform those similar to the ones I listed at nearly 10x the cost.


    Member
    Aaron Smith on #3253

    Hi John,

    How well will these work for 2-channel music listening?

    I have a bonus room that I was building into a home theater room, but due to it’s proximity to the rest of the living space (fairly far away), I feel it would be a shame not to make it a dual-purpose room and handle 2-channel as well. The room is fairly compact at 23.5′ L (may shorten it to 21′ for better acoustics) x 12′ W with a cathedral ceiling that goes from 6′ to 10′.

    The current plan for LCR is to use either 10″ or 8″ Tannoy Dual-Concentrics (I have both available), and either 8″ or 6.5″ DC’s for side/rear surround for the HT side of things. Due to the Tannoy’s efficiency, power would come from 150 or so watts to each driver from a competent multi-channel amp (I have a couple to choose from).

    For 2-channel I have a pair of the AV123 LS6 line arrays paid for on pre-order. I was going to build the Tannoys into the walls permanently and the LS6’s were going to be stored in custom cutouts in the knee walls when not in use and slid out into the room for 2-channel. I was planning on using a separate preamp/amp for the LS6’s; undecided as of yet.

    Sub-bass will be IB and was going to come from 2 of your original AV15’s and 6 of the TC equivalents; but I think I have a buyer for 4 of the drivers and am pondering a switch to either 4 FI 18’s or 8 of your IB15’s…can’t quite get the thought of 16 IB15’s out of my head either. 😈 Totally ridiculous overkill, but this would allow (4) 4-driver manifolds for the smoothest bass possible per the Harman white paper.

    Since this room is somewhat of a compromise anyway — both because I know the approach to room treatment is different for HT compared to 2-channel, and because the room width is quite a bit narrower than I wish I had — I have been wondering if I’m going through more trouble than it is worth running two discrete systems and was considering consolidating it into one before I even get started on it…enter your dual TD10M/NeoPro5i.

    I want a big, dynamic, live sound for both HT and 2-channel. I really like the Tannoys for HT, but admit to having never heard a line source for 2-channel…I’m just going off a hunch with the LS6’s. If these monitors of yours can give me most of what the LS6’s can for 2-channel, I believe they will outpace the Tannoys for HT. 😉

    If I went the TD10M/NeoPro5i route I have (5) QSC DCA-1622’s, (5) QSC DSP-4’s, and a QSC Basis 922 (basically 4 DSP-4’s in one box) to work with. The capability for fully active is there, but I’m not sure I want to put all of my resources into it over what looks to be a nice, simple, and cheap passive crossover.

    I understand and agree with you about the importance of matching drivers for all channels of a multi-channel system, but being that LCR material is far more demanding than what the surrounds have to deal with, is there a way to ‘downgrade’ the system from 5 or 7 dual TD10M/NeoPro5’s to something with similar, but less capable, surrounds?

    Aaron


    Participant
    stryke on #3254

    @joshk wrote:

    Where do the TD12M’s fall into this comparison?

    The TD12M’s are probably very similar to the TD10M, but they are a little more curvilinear so their breakup will be different. Not to mention the different size. There is just something very special about the curvilinear expansion rate on the 15″ cone. Just one of those times when everything seems almost perfect. Nothing voodoo or supernatural, but something that would take some very serious FEA work to exactly duplicate in the 10″ and 12″ cone. Again, the 10″ and 12″ are going to do 2KHz easily, so it’s not like they aren’t capable drivers.

    John


    Participant
    stryke on #3255

    @aaron Smith wrote:

    How well will these work for 2-channel music listening?

    That was really one of the goals with these originally. A very efficient monitoring system for high end studios. I’ll be working with Mark Seaton on the full active version that will eventually make it to market as a powered mid/far field monitoring system. The plan in the mean time was to offer something with the passive xover to those DIY users who want a high efficiency, high output system. For 2 channel listening you’d want the same accuracy and detail as those who are mixing and monitoring the music. Some have expressed wanting to run these off tube amplifiers as well. This will work out quite well due to the high efficiency and the flat impedance of the drivers. As these can also get ridiculously loud, we have a few bars/clubs already interested in using these for their house sound system, as well as a church looking to use them for their main sanctuary system in a room seating 300+ people.

    I have a bonus room that I was building into a home theater room, but due to it’s proximity to the rest of the living space (fairly far away), I feel it would be a shame not to make it a dual-purpose room and handle 2-channel as well. The room is fairly compact at 23.5′ L (may shorten it to 21′ for better acoustics) x 12′ W with a cathedral ceiling that goes from 6′ to 10′.

    This is actually almost identical in size to the room we have at the shop that will eventually be the demo room. Our ceiling is 9ft over the entire room. I can say that these get VERY loud in this room. With only about 120W available we are able to reach the 120+dB range at 1m.

    The current plan for LCR is to use either 10″ or 8″ Tannoy Dual-Concentrics (I have both available), and either 8″ or 6.5″ DC’s for side/rear surround for the HT side of things. Due to the Tannoy’s efficiency, power would come from 150 or so watts to each driver from a competent multi-channel amp (I have a couple to choose from).

    For 2-channel I have a pair of the AV123 LS6 line arrays paid for on pre-order. I was going to build the Tannoys into the walls permanently and the LS6’s were going to be stored in custom cutouts in the knee walls when not in use and slid out into the room for 2-channel. I was planning on using a separate preamp/amp for the LS6’s; undecided as of yet.

    I don’t have a lot of experience with the Tannoy Dual Concentrics. I have heard they are good drivers. I can say that we are looking at a system here that will be 100dB 1w and a 4ohm nominal load when finished. The power you have available would be plenty to get high levels like we have in our room. People often don’t realize just how loud 120dB continuous levels are. When a speaker can reproduce these levels cleanly it may not always sound so loud… then you realize you are screaming at the person 2ft away and he can’t hear what you’re saying. 🙂 I’m sure the LS6’s will be great speakers. I’ve done several similar line arrays in the past with great results. It just comes down to whether or not you want 2 separate systems or one that can play both roles.

    Sub-bass will be IB and was going to come from 2 of your original AV15’s and 6 of the TC equivalents; but I think I have a buyer for 4 of the drivers and am pondering a switch to either 4 FI 18’s or 8 of your IB15’s…can’t quite get the thought of 16 IB15’s out of my head either. 😈 Totally ridiculous overkill, but this would allow (4) 4-driver manifolds for the smoothest bass possible per the Harman white paper.

    Wow, people thought I was crazy for wanting to put 8 IB15’s in our demo room. 🙂 I thing you could definitely get away with 8 IB15’s, 2 per mainfold if you wanted to go with the 4 separate manifolds per the Harman white paper. In that size room you should easily be able to reach 120dB+ levels down to 10Hz. The output would be staggering. The Fi drivers are good as well, however they don’t have the full copper sleeve on the pole as the IB15’s do. The benefits of the copper are very significant in terms of distortion. The IB15’s also need less than 100W to move to full excursion in the 10Hz range. With the design we planned for maximum bass efficiency in an IB. The less power you need to get to a given output level, the better.

    Since this room is somewhat of a compromise anyway — both because I know the approach to room treatment is different for HT compared to 2-channel, and because the room width is quite a bit narrower than I wish I had — I have been wondering if I’m going through more trouble than it is worth running two discrete systems and was considering consolidating it into one before I even get started on it…enter your dual TD10M/NeoPro5i.

    I’d say there is less difference in room treatment for the 2 channel vs HT than you’d realize. In either situation you’re going to want to get rid of the first reflections. This means side wall and ceiling for the front 2 channels and ceiling for the center channel. The only main difference is that with the 2 channel you’re only concerned about results at really one position vs optimizing for the entire room for the HT setup.

    I want a big, dynamic, live sound for both HT and 2-channel. I really like the Tannoys for HT, but admit to having never heard a line source for 2-channel…I’m just going off a hunch with the LS6’s. If these monitors of yours can give me most of what the LS6’s can for 2-channel, I believe they will outpace the Tannoys for HT. 😉

    In terms of output, these should be able to surpass the output of the LS6’s. Yes, the LS6’s will have the multiple ribbons, but in an array, they really don’t sum to give more output like the woofers would. You’re still limited to not a lot more output than the maximum level of the single ribbon. The array will have a very controlled vertical response to help eliminate floor/ceiling reflections. The single NeoPro5i by nature has a limited vertical response, and so does the MTM woofer section in this configuration.

    If I went the TD10M/NeoPro5i route I have (5) QSC DCA-1622’s, (5) QSC DSP-4’s, and a QSC Basis 922 (basically 4 DSP-4’s in one box) to work with. The capability for fully active is there, but I’m not sure I want to put all of my resources into it over what looks to be a nice, simple, and cheap passive crossover.

    The passive crossover should give some very good results for people. Full active is the plan for the eventual production monitors so that amplification, xover, compression, limiting, EQ, etc is all available in one nice package. Obviously the full DSP has more capability, but for most people the passive xover will work well. The addition of just a 2 channel EQ to correct for the response of the room is all most will need.

    I understand and agree with you about the importance of matching drivers for all channels of a multi-channel system, but being that LCR material is far more demanding than what the surrounds have to deal with, is there a way to ‘downgrade’ the system from 5 or 7 dual TD10M/NeoPro5’s to something with similar, but less capable, surrounds?

    I’m working on a solution for this as well. The first option would just be the single TD10M with the Neopro5i. This would give up a little in the output capability and efficiency as the tweeter would need to be padded down to match the single woofer. However, nearly any processor, receiver, etc allows for adjusting levels so this would not be an issue. The box size gets cut in half and you’re looking at less cost from one less woofer. I had looked at other options such as going with a lower cost Fountek ribbon, but the problem lies with the Pro5i really being the only one to support a low enough xover point.

    John


    Member
    Aaron Smith on #3256

    John, Thank you very much for the nicely detailed response — it helps clarify things in my mind quite a bit!

    Edit: Everything else that was here taken to PM to reduce thread clutter.


    Member
    Aaron Smith on #3257

    BTW, have the Rockford lawyers given you any *hit for using the ‘Stryke’ username in your forum? :mrgreen:


    Member
    chasw98 on #3258

    Any idea why the pdf links on the website don’t work. The Lambda 10 and 12 inch models look to be excellent candidates for 3 way systems but without info, it is hard to consider them. Are they even available to purchase yet? Thanks.

    Chuck


    Participant
    stryke on #3259

    @chasw98 wrote:

    Any idea why the pdf links on the website don’t work. The Lambda 10 and 12 inch models look to be excellent candidates for 3 way systems but without info, it is hard to consider them. Are they even available to purchase yet? Thanks.

    Chuck

    Hi Chuck,

    Sorry the links don’t work yet. None of the pdf files have been made. I wish there was a way to check that off in the backend but there isn’t. All of the Lambda drivers are available for order. They are custom made to order with a 5 day lead time. As there are so many models, VC configurations, etc it is going to take a lot of time to get everything up. If there is something in particular you’re looking at, please let me know and I can get you any info you need.

    John


    Participant
    stryke on #3260

    Well, after taking forever, I finally have the plans drawn up for the preliminary Xover. As the weather gets nice outside and I can do some more measurements I will likely refine the Xover. The nice thing is that the components really aren’t too expensive so you can get a start with something to listen to now and won’t have a whole lot of money into an upgraded xover later. Here is the schematic.

    For the pdf download click this link. http://www.aespeakers.com/plans/NeoPro5i-xover.pdf

    Here is a parts list for madisound with pricing. Coils are standard madisound inductors and caps are solen. DCR of the inductors is taken into account so going with heavier gauge wire will not be beneficial in this case. This is the quantity required to make one speaker.

    1 pcs 2.0MHL $7.10
    2 pcs .67MHL $3.65
    1 pcs .25MHL $2.75
    1 pcs CP25 $8.75
    1 pcs CP6 $3.30
    1 pcs CP12 $5.40
    1 pcs 8E $1.20

    Total $32.15

    It looks like the 8 ohm resistors are currently out of stock. A 7ohm can easily be substituted with a very slight increase in the upper end response.

    John


    Member
    looneybomber on #3261

    When are you anticipating having full blown kits (drivers and raw crossover parts) for sale? Are you waiting till you can do more XO testing?


    Member
    Nasty N8 on #3262

    Any new developments on these?

    Nate

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